Rory Sutherland, Elfried Samba and Max Osborne on marketing's next wave

This episode of The Bottleneck Podcast dives into the uneasy relationship between creativity and data in modern marketing. Max Osborne, co-founder of This That, joins Rory Sutherland and Elfried Samba to explore how performance metrics and short-term thinking have reshaped the industry—and why it’s time to put intuition back in the mix. Together they unpack the origins of brand lift, the limits of benchmarking, and why true marketing success often looks like failure before it becomes a breakthrough. From influencer measurement to community-driven brands, they discuss how embracing uncertainty may be the only way to grow. Timestamps 03:45 – Rory on why marketing has confused efficiency with effectiveness 06:10 – Elfried on how data killed creative bravery 07:00 – Max introduces This That and the search for measurable creativity 09:30 – Why ROAS has become a false god 13:40 – The myth of benchmarking and the loss of plurality 17:15 – Max’s first startup: an algorithm that could price your weekly shop 26:20 – How a viral swiping app evolved into This That 42:10 – What “brand lift” really means and how it measures influence 1:00:25 – Turning brand data into a language finance can trust 1:14:20 – Reputation as a brand’s pension and insurance policy 1:28:00 – Why the next revolution in marketing is about human relevance Follow Rory: Instagram: @rorysutherland_clips Tiktok: @Rorysutherlandclips X: @rorysutherland Linkedin: in/rorysutherland/ Follow Elfried: Instagram: elfriedsamba Linkedin: in/elfriedsamba/ https://www.butterflyeffect.xyz/ Follow Max: Instagram @ maxosborne/ Instagram thisthat.tt/   / himax      / @thisthat-tt   https://www.thisthat.com/