Ilan Pappé on Israel and Epstein and Why Zionism has No Moral Limits

Is Israel entering a period of irreversible transformation? In this conversation, I sit down with Israeli historian and author Ilan Pappé to discuss his latest book, Israel on the Brink. Instead of looking backward, Pappé looks forward — imagining what the collapse of political Zionism could mean and what might replace it. We talk about the growing rift he describes as the “State of Judea” vs the “State of Israel,” the reported 270,000 Israelis who have left, the possibility of a one-democratic state by 2048, and whether international pressure — from the U.S., Europe, or the Global South — could fundamentally shift the trajectory. We also tackle difficult territory: U.S. politics, lobbying power, accusations of antisemitism, the Epstein discourse, and whether Israel’s strategic alliances are becoming more cynical and less moral. Is this a slow reform? A violent rupture? Or something no one is prepared for? This is a serious, nuanced discussion about power, legitimacy, and what history tells us about how states unravel — and rebuild. 00:00:00 Coming Up... 00:02:02 Intro: Israel on the Brink 00:05:54 State of Judea vs State of Israel 00:12:23 22 More Years... Really!? 00:20:33 The United Nations and the Board of Peace 00:26:55 Changing American Support 00:33:15 Epstein, Israel, Judaism 00:45:40 Antisemitism and Antizionism 00:52:47 Annexation of The West Bank and War with Iran BECOME A MEMBER - MONTHLY MEMBERS ONLY LIVESTREAM    / @jayshapirodilemmapodcast   For more from Jay visit whatjaythinks.com