Jake Sullivan on power, industrial strategy, and the new global order | IMD | Leaders Unplugged

What does it mean to lead in a world where the United States — the anchor of the post-war order — has become "the biggest disruptor in the world"? In this episode of Leaders Unplugged, IMD's David Bach sits down with Jake Sullivan, former National Security Advisor to President Biden, for a frank, wide-ranging conversation on the forces reshaping global business, geopolitics, and the social compact. From the collapse of allied trust to Iran's newly proven ability to close the Strait of Hormuz, this is the geopolitical briefing every senior executive needs. Sullivan argues that Trump "does not believe that allies are assets — he thinks they are liabilities," that the Iran war was "entirely a war of choice, an elective war," and that the era of assuming innovation dominance without industrial strength is over: "The United States has to concern itself with being able to build." On AI and the future of work, he warns that we need "fundamentally new answers" to the question of "where does the human fit in in an age of exploding technology" — and that no political leader has yet emerged to deliver them. Our guest: Jake Sullivan served as National Security Advisor to President Joe Biden from 2021 to 2025, helping shape U.S. responses to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, strategic competition with China, the wars in the Middle East, and the growing intersection of technology and geopolitics. A longtime adviser to both Biden and Hillary Clinton, Sullivan was also one of the architects of the Iran nuclear deal during the Obama administration and a leading voice behind the idea of a “foreign policy for the middle class.” Today, he is the inaugural Kissinger Professor of the Practice of Statecraft and World Order at Harvard Kennedy School, a faculty affiliate at Harvard’s Belfer Center, a Senior Fellow at the University of New Hampshire’s Carsey School of Public Policy, and co-host of the foreign policy podcast “The Long Game” alongside his former deputy Jon Finer. Harvard Kennedy School faculty profile: https://www.hks.harvard.edu/faculty/j... X: @jakejsullivan Resources: Jake Sullivan, “The Tech High Ground,” *Foreign Affairs: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/united... Kurt M. Campbell and Rush Doshi, “Underestimating China”: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/china/... The Long Game with Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer: https://podcasts.voxmedia.com/show/th... Dan Wang, “Breakneck: China’s Quest to Engineer the Future”: https://danwang.co/breakneck/ Timestamps: 00:04 — “The damage is real”: Sullivan on America’s frayed alliances 02:34 — The Yale seminar that shaped a strategist 06:59 — Is “grand strategy” still possible in the age of Trump? 07:59 — Allies, trade and the worldview behind Trump’s foreign policy 09:54 — The new consensus: industrial policy is back 11:37 — Why making things matters again 14:23 — China, scale and America’s shrinking margin for error 15:31 — The case for “small yard, high fence” 17:28 — Did export controls make China stronger? 18:42 — ASML and geopolitics 23:35 — Why America cannot beat China alone 24:37 — Can “allied scale” survive Trump? 28:20 — The hard road back to trust 30:27 — Iran, the JCPOA and strategic frustration 33:38 — The Strait of Hormuz becomes real leverage 34:26 — What energy shocks change 36:28 — China’s overlooked advantage: infrastructure 38:51 — Where do humans fit into the age of AI? 40:39 — The hidden trade-off in industrial strategy 42:07 — The search for a new political bargain 43:10 — What historians may call this era Enjoyed this conversation? 🔔 Subscribe to Leaders Unplugged for candid conversations with the impactful: Apple | Spotify | YouTube Connect with IMD: Follow IMD on Instagram: @imdbusinessschool Follow IMD on LinkedIn: @imd-business-school Follow IMD on BlueSky: @imdbusinessschool.bsky.social Follow IMD on Facebook: @imdbschool Follow IMD on Substack: https://substack.com/@ibyimd