Zion Today, Not Someday | An Interview with Dan Duckworth

Dan Duckworth speaks, teaches, and writes on leadership, power, and systemic change. His forthcoming book, "The Leader in Chains" (spring 2026), challenges conventional ideas and calls for a radical rethinking of leadership—and how it is developed. Dan challenges the idea that God loves hierarchy, suggesting that while the current church structure appears hierarchical, it may not align with God's way [05:08]. Dan emphasizes that Zion is a "here and now" goal, not a "someday" event [09:22]. He defines leadership in Zion as enabling people to build something better and more glorious, which is the ideal aspiration for any leader [13:55]. The conversation also distinguishes between "ruler" and "leader," noting that Zion has leaders who coordinate and facilitate for the community's benefit [23:25]. Dan differentiates between the Church's ecclesiastical work and the separate work of building communities worthy of Christ's presence, asserting that Zion building can occur in various community settings [28:13]. He also introduces the concept of "anointed leaders" (called by God) versus "appointed leaders" (placed by hierarchy) [29:54]. Finally, Dan advises that building Zion may require a "subversive nature" to avoid being "crushed" by the system, suggesting that change-makers should show fruits first and allow roots to strengthen before facing potential resistance [45:02]. 00:05:08 - The Nature of Hierarchy in the Church 00:09:22 - Zion as a Present Goal vs. a Future Event 00:12:08 - Leadership in Zion 00:17:18 - The Role of Gifts and Discerning Leadership 00:23:25 - Distinction Between Ruler and Leader 00:28:13 - Ecclesiastical Work vs. Zion Building 00:29:54 - Anointed vs. Appointed Leaders 00:45:02 - Navigating Resistance and Subversive Building