We've built artificial intelligence; we don't know if we've built artificial consciousness — Ken Liu

Ken Liu: Renowned sci-fi author of The Paper Menagerie, The Hidden Girl and Other Stories, and his new book All That We See or Seem; producer of Pantheon; futurist who works with world governments to prepare for what’s ahead. When will AI become conscious and how would we even know if it did? We talk about the decoupling of intelligence and consciousness in today's LLMs, and the ethical questions in regulating models. Ken walks me through a thought experiment to understand the singularity: what uploading our minds might actually look like, a theme explored in his Netflix series Pantheon. If we replace our minds piece by piece with silicon, at what point do “we” disappear? In the age of AI, when many technical skills are made obsolete, who are the experts of craft? We explore why falling in love with AI may be grounded in our religious history, and is an act of falling in love with our own reflection. We discuss how phones have killed daydreaming and access to the collective unconscious, and the mysteries of psychedelics, natural intelligence, and the universe at large. “We are willing to die for the sake of a story. In fact, it’s the only thing humans have ever willingly died for.” Most of human life, Ken argues, has two levels of explanation: 1.Evolution 2.Stories — the way we make sense of the world and find meaning in it. EPISODE LINKS: Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast... Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/76SlB8f... TIMESTAMPS: 0:00 — Introduction 1:41 — Mechanism vs meaning: what science explains vs what stories explain 5:47 — What is consciousness, really? 6:42 — Psychedelics and the mystery of the mind 7:55 — The decoupling of intelligence and consciousness? 12:10 — Brain of Theseus: the singularity and uploading our mind 19:15 — Falling in love with AI - why “imaginary companions” aren’t new 23:40 — Modern day myths around romantic love 27:15 — Preservation vs. transformation of humanity 32:37 — When technical skill disappears: what is craft? 40:00 — When using AI actually makes us feel more human 41:05 — Writing, imagination, and “All That We See or Seem” 47:35 — Dreams, reality, and how we know what’s real 54:45 — Privacy in an age of digital selves 58:03 — Data, the commons, and technology regulation Follow Ken: https://x.com/kyliu99 Buy his new book All That We See or Seem : https://www.amazon.com/All-That-Seem-...