You’re Probably Wrong About Reference-Based Pricing | with Jeff Bak

My guest this week is Jeff Bak, CEO of Imagine360. Jeff brings 30 years of healthcare and private equity experience to the table, and he's leading the charge to rebrand and evolve RBP from a defensive "pay and defend" model into a comprehensive, full-stack alternative health plan. In this episode, we tackle the persistent broker misconceptions surrounding RBP, dissecting exactly why the actual balance bill rate is closer to 3% while plan savings average over 20%. We also explore how Imagine360 blends RBP with strategic direct hospital contracts (like Baylor and Northwestern) to give employees a seamless "PPO-like" experience without the inflated PPO price tag. Jeff also breaks down the reality of the No Surprises Act (NSA) and Independent Dispute Resolution (IDR) process, and why hospitals are currently winning the majority of those arbitration cases. If you are a benefits consultant or an employer looking to truly break away from the traditional "BUCA" networks, while ensuring your employees aren't stranded with unmanageable balance bills, this conversation is the reality check you need. "We did this survey with a third-party consulting group who talked to 2,000 brokers. Their perception was that 25% of bills are going to be balance bills; it's actually 3%." Thank you to our 2026 sponsors! ParetoHealth: ParetoHealth empowers midsize employers with a long-term solution to reduce volatility and lower overall health benefits costs. Visit https://www.paretohealth.com/fully-in... to learn more. Samaritan Fund: A program that connects those who need help to the support they need. We are proud to offer the Samaritan Fund Program. Visit SamaritanFundProgram.com to learn more. Vālenz Health: We're Vālenz Health, your partner in improving health literacy, reducing plan spend, and delivering high-value healthcare. Visit ValenzHealth.com to learn more. Imagine360: Imagine360 helps self-funded employers save on healthcare with smarter health plans. Cut expenses by 20-30% with custom solutions. Contact us today at Imagine360.com. Chapters: (00:00:00) Intro: Dispelling Broker Myths Around RBP (00:03:52) Jeff's Background: From the NFL to Healthcare CEO (00:10:15) Defining Reference-Based Pricing (Cost-to-Charge vs. Medicare) (00:14:22) Why Traditional Plans are Like Buying a Ford F-150 Every Year (00:16:19) The Evolution from ELAP's "Pay and Defend" to Imagine360 (00:20:09) Blending RBP with Direct Hospital Contracts (00:26:01) Unpacking the Broker Survey: Perceived vs. Actual Balance Bill Rates (00:34:19) Building an Integrated, Full-Stack Health Plan (00:39:11) How to Transition a Workforce to RBP (Dual Option & Slice) (00:45:34) Managing Single Case Agreements & Redirection (00:50:16) Navigating the NSA and the IDR Arbitration Process (00:54:26) The Ideal Employer Profile for an Alternative Health Plan (00:59:37) The Future of RBP & Price Transparency (01:04:57) Closing Thoughts: The "Barbecue Sandwich" Margin Key Links for Social: @SelfFunded on YouTube for video versions of the podcast and much more -    / @selffunded   Listen/watch on Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/1TjmrMr... Listen on Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast... Follow Spencer on LinkedIn -   / spencer-smith-self-funded   Follow Spencer on Instagram -   / selffundedwithspencer