Prof. Jack Schneider: What Counts as Evidence? The Real Battle Behind Education Reform | EPS 17

We are told constantly that schools are failing. But failing by whose measure, and for whose purposes? In this episode of Deep Thinking with Dr. Steven Stolz, Dr. Steve sits down with Prof. Jack Schneider of the University of Massachusetts, one of America's sharpest education policy researchers and the founder of the Beyond Test Scores Project, to ask the questions that accountability systems never ask about themselves. Prof. Schneider has spent his career at the intersection of education history, policy, and politics. His books, including "Beyond Test Scores," "A Wolf at the Schoolhouse Door" (with Jennifer Berkshire), and "Education and the Commercial Mindset", have made him one of the most important and fearless voices in contemporary education debate. He has also been a leading public intellectual in the fight to defend public education against what he describes as a deliberate and well-funded effort to dismantle it. In this conversation, Dr. Steve and Prof. Schneider explore: — Why standardised tests capture almost none of what parents, teachers, and communities actually value in a school — and why we keep using them anyway — What the Beyond Test Scores Project reveals about what school quality actually looks like when you measure what matters — Why powerful narratives about "failing schools," "accountability," and "school choice" keep driving policy despite weak or contradictory evidence — Who actually benefits when public education is dismantled — and who pays the price — The economic and ideological forces behind school vouchers, charter expansion, and attacks on teachers' unions — Why there is such a persistent gap between how people view schools in general versus their own local school — How misleading rhetoric gets turned into education policy — and how we push back against it — What the culture wars threatening public education are really about, and what is genuinely at stake — What a genuinely useful, humane, and honest approach to measuring school quality could look like This is episode three of the 2026 season "Reconsidering Education", following conversations with Stanford's David Labaree on why schools don't change, and Fred W. Stolz OAM on what great educational leadership actually looks like. 🎧 Listen on Spotify, Apple Podcasts & Amazon Music 📺 Watch on YouTube:    / @stevenstolz   📱 Follow: @DeepThinkingPod 🌐 stevenstolz.com 🔗 Prof. Jack Schneider: umass.edu/education/about/directory/jack-schneider #educationpolicy #PublicEducation #StandardisedTesting #SchoolChoice #EducationReform #BeyondTestScores #AccountabilityInEducation #CultureWars #SchoolVouchers #CharterSchools #TeachersUnions #DeepThinking #DrStevenStolz #EducationPodcast #Podcast #JackSchneider #WhatCountsAsEvidence